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I got the opportunity to interview one of my favorite graffiti and tattoo artists, Mike Giant. I was really happy that he took time from his busy schedule to exchange a few words with me. Actually, more than few. This is in my mind one of the best interviews that I have done, and I hope others will feel the same.
Pyrrhus Darwin Castello: Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to talk with me. Let's get right to it. You were born in New York. What kind of place was that to grow up in and how long did you live there before moving to New Mexico?
Mike Giant: I lived in Hamlin, NY for the first 8 years of my life. It's a small town near Lake Erie. I think it was a great place to begin my life. I had lots of friends and plenty of room to run around. It felt really safe to me as a kid. The town was small enough that everybody knew everybody else, which unfortunately meant I couldn't get away with shit.
Was your family artistic? Or did you get the art spark from somewhere else?
I think of my parents as being artistic in their own way. I grew up watching my dad paint cast iron toys. He's always been an avid collector of various things. My mom has a great design sense. She's been making decorative quilts as far back as I can remember. Both of them really encouraged my interest in art. I always had supplies. I got a huge pack of markers every holiday and birthday.
What role did music play in your life when you were growing up?
The first music that really hit me was heavy metal. I was your typical metalhead American kid. The style of heavy metal really stuck with me. Some of my favorite art of all time is from the covers of 80s metal records. I got into punk as a freshman in high school. At the same time I got interested in hip-hop through the Beastie Boys and Run DMC. Both punk and hip-hop continue to have a huge impact on my worldview.
If I am correct, you didn't start painting graffiti until you were 20, when you moved from Albuquerque, New Mexico to San Francisco to draw graphics for "Think Skateboards". Was it the people in San Francisco (Grime, Saber, etc) that got you into graffiti, or did you start on your own?
I started writing in 1989. I was 18, fresh out of high school. I moved to SF in 1993. I had a few years of writing under my belt before I got there. I hooked up with BA crew as soon as I arrived, and they were my main partners for many years. Early on, I was influenced a lot by my partners in BA, and writers like Twist, Rem, and KR. Later, I started painting in the East Bay with Joker and some guys from FSC crew. It wasn't until 1996 or 1997 that AWR (Bles, Saber, Revok, etc.) really took over the Bay. My style had been established before their arrival.
When did you go from painting alone to being a part of a crew? What crews have you repped?
BA is my family. Most of us have stopped writing, but they're my boys. The first real crew I was in was ATK - All Time Kings. My mentors, Agree and Doc, put me down with ATK in 1990. They were without question the best crew in Albuquerque at the time. It was a deep honor to be one of them. I learned a lot about life from my time with those guys. R.I.P. Agree and Doc.
How did you get your name GIANT, and how important is the name for writers? Because, if I understand correctly, a big part of the name is that is has to look good on the wall and not just sound cool.
I had been writing for a month or two and I was hunting for a name that would stick. I was skateboarding with some friends one afternoon in '89, and I fell really hard, shaking the ground. One of my friends said, “Damn, you went down like a giant!” Something clicked in my mind at that moment, and it's been my alias since.
G-I-A-N-T isn't a great letter combination, but I was taught that a good writer can make ANY word look good. In fact, for a year or two in the mid-90s, I did a bunch of pieces out of nonsense words just to test my ability to rock any letter combination. Most of the pieces were garbage, but I learned a lot from the exercise.
Can you explain to a layman why tagging is such an important part of graffiti culture?
It's the base expression of our artform. It all starts with tags. If you can tag with some style, all the other higher forms of writing are easier to learn. To me, tagging is just as important as pieces, throw-ups, and blockbusters. They all work together to build a complete writer.
What is it about letters that you love most?
Words are the building blocks of language. We use language to describe everything we experience. We even teach ourselves to think in a particular language. It's a human fundamental, learning the contemporary system of communicating. So, I see hand-drawn lettering as the elevation of our basic visual communication tools to the level of fine art. And beautiful lettering engages the viewer in a very direct way because the mind of the viewer consumes the meaning of the word before the eyes have a chance to really observe the aesthetics of the word. In my mind, that's some powerful stuff. Words have the ability to communicate ideas very specifically, in contrast to representation artwork that requires more interpretation on the viewer's part.
Here's a question I asked another artist, Jesse Smith. In capitalism, the motto is pretty much, "get on top, be the biggest", the same is true in graffiti. You try to get your name out more than the others, in hopes of someday being the top dog; you have to "crush" others to get there. This can be done in very negative ways and not just with paint. Is it healthy and natural competition that gives people opportunities they might not otherwise have, or is it a negative side effect of society? What's your take on it?
I come to graffiti from the hip-hop side of things. In the beginning, I saw hip-hop as the artistic expression, in various forms, of the angst felt by inner city kids. Hip-hop was an alternative to the violent gang culture of the time. Hip-hop allowed kids to get really aggro on each other without having to fight. B-boys battle, but they don't touch. MCs talk mad shit, but nobody throws blows over it. DJs battle, but they don't scrap on stage. Writers should handle beef by a show of their bombing and piecing skills, not fisticuffs. It should only go to blows when battling has proven to be ineffective in putting the beef to rest. I only went to blows with one writer. We raced the SF streets for 3 weeks. The point was to see who could put up the most full-color illegal pieces in those 21 days, thus proving who had the most heart and style. I won the race without question, but my foe tried to play it off and wouldn't admit that I put him in his place. So, I beat the fuck out of him. It's not something I would do now, but I still feel it was appropriate at the time.
How big a part does violence play in graffiti? Besides writers having beef with each other, there are property owners who don't take kindly to people trespassing, cops, and regular people playing heroes. How many people do you know who have had serious injuries, or even died, while painting graffiti?
I don't think there's any more violence in graffiti than the culture at large. America is an extremely violent nation. It should be no surprise that graffiti writers fight sometimes.
I've been hurt a few times getting chased by cops. I know of a few writers that died in the act of writing, but it's not at all common. Obviously writers put themselves at a lot of risk climbing around where they're not supposed to in the middle of the night. But for me, part of writing graffiti effectively, or “getting over”, is casing the spot I want to paint. Rarely do I paint a spot without first checking out all the places where cops could come from, and where I could run if need be. I think of it as criminal homework. It's the criminals that don't do their homework that end up in prison. And oddly enough, prison ends up being a place where criminals learn how to get over even more when they're back on the streets.
What do you think about tagbangers? Is that still as big a deal as it was in the 90´s?
No. Gang culture was popularized during that time by the mass American culture. I see it as a horrible fad that thankfully didn't stick. It reflected the desperation of America's youth at that time. I don't think it's happening as much anymore.
What is the main difference between graffiti writers in Europe and in USA? How do the cultures in general differ from each other?
In general, Europeans support art of all sorts more than Americans. They have a long and rich art history. They understand the part that art plays in the greater culture. Graffiti art is no exception. It's something that is really promoted in Europe, and criminalized in the States. That's not to say you won't get arrested for bombing in Paris, but they won't send you to prison for it. And Europeans really like to see fancy colorful graffiti, and they understand that if they let kids do the fancy shit, they'll spend less time just wrecking everything. Americans for the most part don't care to distinguish between the various forms of graffiti. It's ALL bad in the average American's eyes. It's funny and sad to me that American culture has demonized an aesthetic. I could go out and paint a word in a fancy Victorian font on a wall with spraypaint, and the public would love it. As soon as it looks like “graffiti”, they hate it. That's SO stupid to me.
What good has graffiti brought to your life?
It got me involved with a whole generation of artists from all over the world. As a famous graffiti writer, I can hook up with writers almost anywhere in the world, do some walls, and get the lowdown from the locals. Graffiti writers know the streets. They make great guides when I'm in foreign cities.
Graffiti also got me working big. It's still great fun to paint something 8' tall and 20' long in an hour or so. I'm so used to drawing on a small scale that painting big outdoors is still quite a thrill.
When, why, and by whom did you get your first tattoo?
I got my first tattoo from my buddy Carlos in '91. My friend Joker drew the design for me. It's an abstract band of graffiti lettering that spells out "Giant" around my right bicep. Right off the bat, my first inclination was to mark my body with my graffiti alias. If that doesn't say how serious I was about graffiti, I don't know what does. Right now, I have "Giant" written on my body in 5 different places, in various different styles. It's funny.
You started tattooing in 1998. Who whas your mentor and why did you decide that you wanted to start tattooing?
My friend Nalla got me started tattooing. I started getting work from him in '95 when he was working at Tattoo City in San Francisco. We got to be good friends. Early in our relationship, I asked him if he'd teach me and he said No. He thought there were already too many tattooers, and he wasn't in a position to apprentice anyone.
In '98, Nalla asked if I was still interested in learning how to tattoo. Of course, I was very interested. I'd been getting tatttoo'd a lot, and had designed lots of tattoos for friends, and I was working a computer job that was sucking the life out of me. Nalla had bought East Side Inc in NYC that year, and wanted me to work for him there. So he set me up with all the equipment I needed and told me to just give it a try. He also told me that I should tattoo myself to start. I'm glad the first tattoo I made is in my own flesh. It was a really intense experience, and opened me up to a whole new world.
Did you feel like you controlled your body to the fullest? How did it feel?
No, I don't feel like I have much control of my body at all, but I'm working on it. Like every tattoo, it hurt.
If I've got it right, you have worked at Newskool Tattoo, and with George Campise, Erik Rieth and Mike Davis at Everlasting Tattoo. And now you own the shop Stay Gold in Albuquerque. Who have you worked with besides them?
First off, I sold my part of Stay Gold a while ago. I'm not tattooing at all anymore.
My first shop job was at East Side. I worked with Nalla, Patrick Conlon, Andrea Elston, Scott Campbell, Jason McAfee, Kevin LeBlanc, and Josh Lords. Everybody there had a different style and a different way of working. It was a great environment to learn in. I was doing 5-10 walk-ins a day in the beginning, but got a steady clientele pretty quickly and was regularly booked for a week or two.
I really love the way Patrick tattoos. I watched him a lot when I was at East Side. He's got a real handle on how to make a tattoo work with the body, he works quickly and efficiently, his tattoos heal really well, and he's great with clients. He's always had a lot of side art projects, and that inspired me to continue to work outside the world of tattooing as well.
At Newskool I worked with Paco Excel, Adrian Lee, Adam Barton, and Jason Kundell. They taught me a lot, especially Paco. He taught me a lot of simple yet important things. For example, I was drawing panthers with only two teeth between their fangs. He showed me that four teeth looks better. He schooled me on Japanese backgrounds, and how to draw scales on snakes, dragons, and fish. I learned a lot about lighting effects and perspective from Adrian. Adam has tons of raw talent. Jason was an old graffiti friend. He gave me a huge graffiti tattoo around my right leg before I worked with him. I thought of Jason as the graffiti king of San Francisco in the mid 90s, and I watched him learn how to draw tattoo stuff from scratch. He obviously had great teachers, because his work has been world class for a long time now.
I was living in SF, and commuting to Newskool in San Jose a few days a week. The commute kinda sucked, so when a spot at Everlasting opened up, I jumped on it. Working with Mike Davis has been my best experience in tattooing thusfar. He's a really refined artist. Mostly I was inspired by his work ethic. He didn't need to tattoo at all. His fine art and his shop could have easily paid his bills. He continues to tattoo because he likes it. And when he wasn't tattooing, he was in the back room drawing and painting. He never sat around. There was always something to do. I really appreciated that. Working with George and Erik was great too. George is the hardest working tattooer I've ever met. He's a machine. I don't know how he's been able to maintain his intense schedule. My hands hurt after tattooing a few hours, and I've seen George tattoo non-stop from 1pm to 11pm on many occasions. Erik and I got to be really good friends. He even lived with me for a while in a haunted house I was renting in Oakland. We got to spend a few evenings sharing a studio space in that house. Those were some really great times in my life.
Around 2001, I moved to Tattoo 13 in Oakland. I had been living in Oakland because the rent was cheap, and I had less distractions out there so I could concentrate more on my artwork. Again, the commute to SF to work at Everlasting sucked. So, when Freddie Corbin had a spot open at 13, I took it. He had me set up in a semi-private room upstairs away from the walk-in traffic. I worked with Stash, Chummy, and Hector Fong. I could come and go as I pleased. I can't thank Freddie enough for hooking me up. I really enjoyed the laidback atmosphere at 13.
Who do you think is pushing the art of tattooing the furthest at the moment?
Filip Leu and Grime.
You just recently retired from tattooing. Did physical discomfort play a part in this, or was there something else?
My decision to stop tattooing happened for a few reasons. The physical strain was definitely a concern. My hands, back, hips, and neck get fucked up every time I tattoo. Also, tattooing has become the hardest job I can do and pays the least. I make way more money with REBEL8 and fine art now. And in the end, I'm content just sitting in my studio drawing on paper with Sharpies. I'm tired of drawing other people's ideas and trying to get those ideas into their skin. I'm tired of dealing with shop bullshit. I'm tired of all the damn equipment. I'm tired of dealing with blood. I'm just tired of all of it.
Do you think that because tattooing has become more accessible due to the the ever growing media coverage, it has lost a little of it's danger? Have people started to treat artists as objects and not respect their privacy as much?
I think the general public still sees tattooers as misfits and criminals, and for that reason don't pry into their private lives too much. I think it has certainly become more acceptable to have visible tattoos thesedays, but there's still a lot of institutionalized prejudice against tattoo'd people.
What do you think about all the shows on TV about tattooing?
I very consciously don't watch TV. It's all garbage. People should spend more time talking to each other, or being creative, or being helpful.
Here's another question I asked Jesse Smith and would love to get your take on. As you know, tattoo artists have to take care of their backs as well as the rest of their bodies (hands, eyes, arms, etc.) so that they can endure a long lasting career without pain or injury. Do you think that clients should be advised, aside from how to take care of their tattoo, on how to improve the canvas (their skin) that they offer to the tattoo artist? Because if you really love the art, shouldn't you offer the ideal canvas for it?
It would be nice if everybody had healthy skin, but I know that's just not the case. I wouldn't ask a client to take care of their skin any particular way. People should be healthy without me bugging them about it. And in the end, I feel like I should be able to work with any skin type.
What are the best memories that you have from your tattoo years?
As I mentioned before, working at Everlasting in San Francisco was the high point of my tattoo career. It was a lot of fun and really inspiring working there. I particularly liked the days that Mike Davis and I were working alone, listening to gangster rap, drinking beer in plastic cups, and smoking grass between appointments. Good times.
How important do you think it is for artists to travel and see the world? What has travelling brought to your life?
Travelling has been very important in my developing sense of the world, its people, and my place in the big picture. I think everyone should see the world. I think it's an especially good idea for Americans to get out and see how other cultures operate. After spending a lot of time overseas seeing how other people live, and talking to people about their impressions of America, I've come to really abhor our government's policies. Frankly, I can't wait to move to Europe myself.
In France you visited the catacombs under the city. Are there any other surreal moments that you have been involved in that you would like to tell us?
The catacombs were super intense, in a really good way. I can't really think of anything that can match that experience.
How did Buddhism enter your life, and what was your life like before you started to be interested in meditation?
I got into meditation because I was looking for something that could help me deal with day-to-day loneliness and depression. I had just moved to SF, started a new job, and left behind my first girlfriend. I didn't feel all that “happy”, so I started investigating new ways of experiencing the world that made more sense than the Catholic path I was taught as a child. Buddhism makes sense to me. It has enriched my life more than anything.
Do you believe in some kind of entity, or do you draw energy from within yourself and through interaction with others?
I don't believe in a higher power that is somehow in control of everything. Buddhism has helped me see that everything in the natural world is connected and in harmony. When I'm deep in meditation in the woods, I can see that the trees are not in conflict with the rain, the sun, or the pollution we put in the air. They are responding to the moment-to-moment changes without conceptualizing the experience like we do. They just go with the flow, in a way that benefits growth and cooperation. The trees don't get sad when they lose their leaves. The trees don't sit around and compare themselves to the other trees. They just live. I know thatsounds like some hippie shit, but I've learned a lot from the trees.
You have said that you try to go into a deep state of mediation when drawing. What is involved in this process; do you listen to music, burn incense, stretch?
My meditation practice is simply remaining mindful of my thoughts as they arise, noting them, and letting them go. When my mind wanders, I concentrate on my breathing to bring myself back into meditation. Normally I listen to mellow music while I'm drawing, but sometimes it's distracting, so I work in silence. I don't burn incense, but I will smoke marijuana. It's not something I'd recommend to other artists, but I feel like I receive a lot of benefit from it personally. I do try and stretch out every day. I ride my bicycles 15-20 miles a day, and that also helps loosen up my body and mind.
Can you recommend any good books, music, movies, or other rescources where people might find something more than the capitalistic society has to offer?
I'd recommend reading anything by Thich Nhat Hahn and Noah Levine. I've studied the dharma with both of them. They have radically different approaches to the same message. I think of Hahn as my connection to Buddhism as the Buddha himself lived and practiced it. In Levine, I see the future of Buddhism in America.
This is a question that Electric Pick asked Jesse Smith, but I think it suits you too. Do you think that what you eat can influence your work? If you eat better will your work be better? Is someone who is eating McDonalds, for example, doomed to do crappy work, and someone who is eating natural organic food much more prone to do ground breaking original quality work?
Eating healthy food is beneficial, obviously, although a healthy diet doesn't automatically yield an exceptional person. I've met people that smoke cigarettes and drink like fish that are incredibly talented and driven. I've also met health nuts that are complete morons and mental cases. To me, if my mind is healthy, it will work better. And since my brain regulates my body processes, if it's healthy, everything else should work more efficiently too.
You said in another interview "I'm still into drawing cute girls covered in tattoos, skulls, hot rods and all those things that a rebellious teenager would be into, because it's not the status quo." I'm curious, is this in conflict with your Buddhistic views? If you think (I don't know that you do. Please correct me if I'm wrong.) that everybody should have his or her own path, why do you want youth to choose something that's against status quo?
First of all, everybody is on their own path one way or the other. Nobody can hear our thoughts, so we're all completely alone, left to figure it all out by ourselves, on our own terms, in our own minds.
Compared to the status quo, Buddhism is extremely rebellious. The basic teachings of the Buddha run contrary to almost all of the bullshit that our culture accepts without question. It's a practice of looking past the gross superficially of our lives, and seeing how we're all connected and responsible for what's happening in really basic ways.
The status quo is killing us. That's why I hope the youth won't accept it. The status quo is millions of American drivers paying for a war to steal gas from Iraq and make our government officials rich. It's fucked, and we know it.
So its kinda like Noah Levine´s Dharma Punx ideology?
Yes, of course. I think we see eye-to-eye there. I think we both understand the roots of our suffering as individuals, and that perspective has liberated us somewhat. If we can do it, anybody can do it. I've grown to have a lot of compassion for my fellow humans because I understand the suffering caused by the untrained mind. I feel like I've found a simple effective way to live better, and like Noah, I hope to share that understanding with everybody.
Creating a better world starts with individuals. Each of us needs to wake up so we can help others. If we can do that, everything will be fine. The time to start is right now.
Relating to the above question about status quo; your art is very minimalistic but still shows amazing depth and life radiating from it. Have you maybe unconsciously made it so minimalistic so that it will leave more room for people to make there own ideas of what it represents?
I just like the look of things when they are presented simply and clearly. I certainly follow the idea that "less is more". I like simplicity because it doesn't leave any room for bullshit. For example, as a graffiti writer, I'm drawn to solid letterforms, not fancy color schemes and unnecessary ornamentation. I try to strip subjects down to their basic components, and bring life and humanity to the piece through the steady movements of my hand.
I don't concern myself with viewer's interpretations of my work. I try to remain focused on developing my own aesthetic, and my own way of articulating my ideas and concerns. I think a lot of my success is rooted in the way that viewers share my concerns and understand the way I'm presenting those concerns. In other words, I don't think my work is saying anything new, but rather it's commenting on base issues that we all face day to day.
Part what attracts me to graffiti is the anarchist aspect of it; it's the voice of the faceless. How big a part is this kind of mentality in the graffiti world these days? Do kids see themselves as warriors of the unchained soul and the voice of reason in this urban jungle, or do they just want to make cool looking art? How was it for you in the 80´s and 90´s?
I think young people are attracted to the act of doing something public to spite those in control. Most kids I know don't have deep philosophies about what they're doing. They're just doing it, because it satisfies them on some level. Some kids are satisfied with tagging, some aren't satisfied until they can do a wildstyle hanging off the front of a tall building. I think it was the same when I started writing.
When the city of San Francisco shut down all the graffiti yards (Psycho City, etc.) how much did it increase bombing in the city? Is this something that has happened in other citys? Do you think that keeping graffiti yards open would reduce the amount of bombing?
When SF shut down the legal spots, of course we all hit the streets. Closing Psycho City was actually a good thing. It got us back on the streets where we should be. It was about the same time that AWR arrived, and they certainly weren't scared to kill the streets either. I think that was a great time in graffiti history.
I know the same thing has happened in cities all over the world. And obviously, since there's still graffiti writers, city governments aren't dealing with it effectively.
You are naturally against people ripping your stuff and copying it. But how do you feel about people who take one of your designs and then reprint it on a shirt to wear themselves?
I don't mind that so much. I did that myself when I was a teenager. Using my work for profit isn't cool though.
I love the pen and ink stuff that you have done of houses with graffiti on the walls. Does this somehow project your deep appreciation for life, your desireto get the most out of everything?
In the case of those drawings, I was trying to create illustrations with some historical importance. I love looking at street scenes in illustrations from the late 1800s because I can immerse myself in the details and get a better sense for what it was like to live back then. I like to work from photographs because I want to capture all the little details, and I want viewers in the future to be able to learn about our time in the details I render. I'm sure in 100 years telephone wires will be gone, and people will trip out on all the wires in my street illustrations. I think that's cool.
Could there be a philosophical aspect to it? Two worlds colliding; the wires and telephone poles standing there robotically representing all the controlled information that we get trough TV, radio and other media, versus your graffiti, an unfiltered voice, the soul of the people that just flows freely.
Any image has the power to inspire philosophies; and as you have pointed out, even a simple drawing of some buildings with electric lines and some graffiti writing can represent all sorts of lofty things.
You working with photographs reminds me of the stuff that Electrick Pick does ( www.electricpick.com ). He takes a photograph that has buildings or random scenes in them, and then draws, for example, a huge robot in there. That's cool stuff. By the way, have you been influenced by comic books yourself?
I study the work of Charles Burns and Chris Ware, but they're the only comic artists I check out. I've never been interested in reading comics. I just like the drawings.
Will there be a book about your house art?
Maybe someday.
I hope so. They are some of my favorite art pieces at the moment, maybe of all time. Any other projects in the works?
I'm almost finished with a set of 6 flash posters that should be available in September. I'm also working on a REBEL8xVANS collaboration that should be out next year. And I'm working on new illustrations for upcoming REBEL8 releases and artshows in Australia.
How would you like to be remembered?
By my works.
Thank you for your time and have a great summer.
Thank you. May all beings find love and happiness in this present moment.
To finish this off, I will leave you with a few words about how I feel about Giant's art.
When I heard the name Mike Giant the first time, he was hailed as one of the great tattooists. His name was mentioned in the same context as other greats, such as Marcus Pacheco or Mike Roper. The guys that onlythose "in the know" have been tattooed by. After some searching I found his website. It was down, figures. I waited for months and months, checking it every week. When it finally came up, the rush was similar to the first time I saw Kore Flatmo's work. I just laughed and shook my head.
What was even more enchanting than his tattoos, were his pen and ink drawings. After some thought, I have come to the conclusion, that what makes them so great is the way that they are rooted in everyday life. They have clean lines, as in most graffiti, bilboards, flyer, and poster art. The same kind of dynamics as buildings, cars, bikes and furniture have. I am talking about things that you can see everywhere. You have the same deep life radiating from them, as you get from movies, books, music and beautiful sunsets over empty deserted streets. You can see it when you go walking in the woods; that life force in the trees, and rocks, how the water moves, how birds fly. It's everywhere. In short, his art holds the keys to the universe. Why else would it be so good?
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